Welcome to the Force & Friction Podcast, where we break down what really moves the needle in GTM, RevOps, AI, partnerships, and SaaS growth. Today, we're diving deep into the rise of GTM engineering and how AI is transforming revenue ops with Michael Saruggia.
Michael is one of the world's leading GTM engineer advisors, author of "The GTM Engineer," and architect of a movement that's fundamentally changing how companies scale revenue. What makes Michael's approach revolutionary is his philosophy of micro-relevance over mass personalization, a strategic shift that's redefining how companies think about automation and human connection in their go-to-market motions.
His origin story begins at the intersection of AI, technology, and business ROI, where he discovered that with "just a little bit of automation," he could outperform entire SDR teams. This wasn't about replacing humans, it was about augmenting their capabilities and unlocking time for what matters most: actual selling.
We explore why GTM engineering is here to stay, how it differs from traditional RevOps, the critical importance of activation over signals, and why most companies are thinking about Clay and automation completely wrong.
Michael Saruggia
Michael is one of the world's leading GTM engineer advisors, author of "The GTM Engineer," and architect of a movement that's fundamentally changing how companies scale revenue.
What makes Michael's approach revolutionary is his philosophy of micro-relevance over mass personalization, a strategic shift that's redefining how companies think about automation and human connection in their go-to-market motions.
What makes Michael's approach revolutionary is his philosophy of micro-relevance over mass personalization, a strategic shift that's redefining how companies think about automation and human connection in their go-to-market motions.
Watch the Episode:
Here are the core areas we discuss in today's episode:
1: The Automation Misconception: Augmentation, Not Replacement
Michael opens by debunking the biggest myth in GTM engineering—that automation is about replacing SDRs and AEs entirely.
"I don't really think it's about automating SDRs. You can't really automate SDRs, and it's like a false promise, I guess... You can't fully automate, but you can help them sell better and sell more. I always tell to people, try to divide activation in different parts. If it is, like, a named account, manual. If it is iTouch, SDR. If it is low-touch, maybe you can fully automate."
This nuanced approach recognizes that different types of prospects require different levels of human involvement. The real success comes from merging automation with manual outreach and personalization, creating a hybrid model that maximizes both efficiency and effectiveness.
2: Micro-Relevance: The Strategic Alternative to Mass Personalization
Michael reveals why the common approach to tools like Clay, downloading massive lists and spamming everyone misses the point entirely.
"Micro-relevance and being intentional in doing the things is using strategy... you should plug clay inside your company assets. And you should actually engineer warm conversations... Activate it into the right way. And this can be divided into people. AEs, SDR fully automated, and even into context."
His example of inbound-led outbound demonstrates this perfectly: website visitors get routed differently based on whether they're named accounts (manual AE activation), high-intent decision makers (SDR sequences), or individual contributors (full automation). It's about the right message, to the right person, through the right channel, at the right time.
3. GTM Engineering vs. RevOps: The Activation Difference
Michael clarifies the distinction between traditional RevOps and the emerging GTM engineering role, focusing on where each adds the most value.
"RevOps is CRM, Dashboard, data management. GTM engineering is more, I bring what RevOps is doing, and I activate reps... the real reason people fail in terms of revobs and GTM engineering, they don't see the ROI is not the signals, is how you are activating people with these signals."
This insight shifts focus from data collection to data activation. Having perfect signals means nothing if your sales team doesn't trust them, act on them, or see results from them. GTM engineering bridges the gap between data and action.
4. The Company Stage Reality: When GTM Engineering Actually Makes Sense
Michael provides a contrarian view on when companies should invest in GTM engineering, challenging the early-stage automation hype.
"You need those SDRs, you need those AEs, the GTM engineers do not... substitute them... when you are early stage, the only thing you can do is outbound if you're a go-to-market engineer, there's nothing else... Where you're a pasta mill is where I really see the good-to-market engineering making sense, even way more to enterprise companies, mid-market companies."
His perspective emphasizes that GTM engineering isn't about fixing broken GTM, it's about making successful GTM more efficient. Companies need product-market fit and existing assets (CRM data, website traffic, ad spend) before GTM engineering can deliver meaningful ROI.
5. The Clay Complexity Paradox: Why One Person Should Touch the Platform
Michael addresses the biggest challenge with powerful automation platforms, complexity and the temptation for everyone to become an expert.
"The only person who should touch clay is one guy, he's the GTM engineer. Everybody else shouldn't touch it... If you're a VP sales, if you're a CRO, and you want to learn clay... is not the right... It doesn't exist a company where the CRO uses clay and they are successful. It will never exist."
This organizational insight prevents the common trap of executives trying to become technical experts instead of focusing on strategy. Like any specialized function, GTM engineering requires dedicated expertise and clear role boundaries.
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Final Thoughts:
Michael leaves us with a powerful framework for thinking about GTM engineering ROI and implementation."The biggest unlock is the time SDRs invest in making the list... I've seen people twice doubling the number of sales touches that they do per day on outreach, creating a better list. But it's very simple. One is, you just wake up and you prospect, and in the other, you're lost."His final insight emphasizes that GTM engineering success isn't measured by the sophistication of the automation, it's measured by how much more effective it makes your human teams.The GTM engineering revolution isn't about replacing human connection with technology, it's about using technology to enable more meaningful human connections at scale.
As Michael demonstrates, when you focus on micro-relevance over mass personalization, activation over signals, and augmentation over replacement, automation becomes a force multiplier for revenue teams rather than a replacement for them. The future belongs to companies that can master this balance, using GTM engineering to unlock their teams' potential rather than trying to engineer their teams away.
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A little about me, the host the show. Please connect with me on LinkedIn I'd love to have you as part of our professional network
Mike Midgley runs a portfolio career, a dynamic hands on digital entrepreneur, founder of the Scrubbing Squad, NXD, strategist, public speaker, Winning by Design certified Revenue Architect and Host at The Force & Friction Podcast.
Mike has achieved multiple exits over a 30+ year career, raised Venture Capital and franchised his businesses 68 times.
